13 Comments

1. Theresa Defino

   I concur with Art’s comments. I, too, am the subject of the same records request.

   Mr. Jordan’s request asks for “(B) All emails and correspondence, related in any fashion generated, that were sent from any City of Rockville email address to a Ms. Theresa Defino, and/or sent from Ms. Theresa Defino to any City of Rockville email address. City of
   Rockville email addresses should follow the same guidelines as described in
   (A) above. Email addresses for Ms. Defino should include, but not be limited
   to, [email protected]. The same time period as in (A) above should be
   covered, September 10th, 2010 up to and including the present.”

   As specious as Mr. Jordan’s reasoning was for delving into Art’s email correspondence. he has even less cause to go after me. Art has served on city advisory committees himself. I do not. I am a private citizen, not elected, not appointed, not participating currently in any city sponsored panels, boards, or otherwise.

   I expressed how I felt about this in the Gazette article, stating:
   Defino said she sees the request as directly connected to her criticism of Mayor Phyllis Marcuccio. Jordan ran Marcuccio’s campaign in 2009.

   “I think it’s harassment, I think it’s intimidation and it’s a witch hunt,” she said. “I have been one of the most vocal critics of the mayor. I’m not going to be bullied and I’m not going to stop saying what I think needs to be said.”

   I hope Mr. Jordan has fun reading my water bill (yes, it is emailed). Sorry, I was late once.

2. Tom Miner

   Art, While I tend to understand your personal feelings on this matter, i take issue your statement that Jordan represents the City of Rockville. Other than being on the Redgate Advisory Committee, which I assume he volunteered to do along with other citizen volunteers (i Know you’ll correct me if I’m wrong), to my knowledge he does not represent the City.
   Also, I’m not sure how his FOIA request is intimidating you or Theresa. Seems to have the opposite effect, which is good – I like your involvement. It appears to me more of a fact finding quest. But if there is no “dirt” to dig up, then no harm, no foul.
   For me, this is a reminder that email, especially to/from any government entity is NOT private, nor should it be in what we consider an open society. If you play by the rules and participate, then your emails are public, regardless of who is asking for them and why.
   That said, I’ve appreciated your contributions to the Redgate debate and hope you will continue to be involved. Thank you, Tom Miner

3. David Greene

   I agree with Mr. Miner, and I appreciate Mr. Stigile’s contributions to the Redgate debate.

   Mr. Jordan’s actions seem reasonable to me. There are other explanations that are more charitable towards Mr. Jordan — perhaps he hopes to ensure that all of Mr. Stigile’s concerns are addressed, or maybe he wants to be fully prepared to rebut Mr. Stigile’s arguments. I cannot fault Mr. Jordan for legal information gathering.

   Mr. Stigile’s actions, however, seem a bit extreme to me. He started a petition and created a website whose primary purpose appears to be to have Mr. Jordan fired from “all positions that he serves” for Rockville.

   Mr. Stigile said he “fully supports Mr. Jordan’s request”, but then wants him fired for making the request. He complained that his comments were “largely ignored”, but then he also claims to be intimidated by Mr. Jordan’s attempts to view his comments.

   I am not acquainted with Mr. Jordan or Mr. Stigile, and I don’t play golf, but I do live in Rockville, and I am disappointed to see such energetic activism wasted on a FOIA when there are so many true injustices in the world.

4. Theresa Defino

   What is taking a lot of time and taxpayer resources is the city having to respond to Mr. Jordan’s unprecedented request, which, I noted, also includes me. My guess is hundreds of hours of staff time are involved. On the other hand, Art has updated a website he already owns on his own time to draw attention to this issue. No comparison at all. None of you have any idea what is involved in responding to this request, which, as Art pointed out, Mr. Jordan recently expanded.

   Since we’re getting all Facebooky, here’s what I wrote to Tom on FB in response:
   Why should city staff spend time compiling six months of my email correspondence for Joe Jordan to review? That’s not open government; that’s using the government and tax payer resources to harass people.

   There’s a difference. As a reporter i surely understand the purpose of FOIA laws, and this isn’t it….This has had a definite chilling effect on me, and others.”

5. Art Stigile

   Nice try, Tom, but that dog won’t hunt. There’s no way to sugar coat Mr. Jordan’s actions and pretend that they had any good intent. His own statement to the Gazette refutes that interpretation.

   He said, and I quote, “I asked for it because of Stigile’s outspokenness on the golf course. I don’t know how it will be useful.”

   Repeat — “I don’t know how it could be useful.”

   I think it’s safe to say that Mr. Jordan’s intent wasn’t to make sure that I dotted my i’s and crossed my T’s, or to helpfully look for improper uses of split infinitives.

   I especially reject your formulation that if there’s no “dirt” to dig up, then no harm, no foul. Saying that suggests that my outrage at Mr. Jordan’s political shenanigans is prompted by some fear that he will turn up some dirt on me. I’ve called for the City to publish all of my emails on the City website, just so I wouldn’t have to deal with that sort of innuendo.

   But in this country, I don’t have to prove that to you or to Mr. Jordan or to anyone else. And in this country, honor is not defined as filing FOIAs to look at your opponent’s email for which you can describe no legitimate public purpose. And the last I looked, when you take a swing at someone, it’s a foul whether you connect or miss.

   I have served various governments in various capacities — as a paid worker, adviser, consultant, task force member, and volunteer. As I said at the Feb. 7th Citizen’s Forum, each of us who represents the government, whether as a paid worker or volunteer, knows that we are held to a higher standard of conduct because our conduct reflects on the government we serve. Mr. Jordan’s reflects poorly on the City. He should be discharged as Chair of the Advisory Committee.

6. frances ayer

   Ms Defino, about the FOIA request, methinks thou doth protest too much. If you are not the recipient of any inappropriate communications via City email, you have nothing to fear. As far as it having a “chilling effect” on your freedom of expression, well, you have generously treated Rockville Central readers to at least a half-dozen of your strongly-worded postings in just the space of just a few hours today, on a variety of subjects that you continue to voice strong opinions about. As others have pointed out, far from having a “chilling effect” it seems like this controversy has had rather the opposite effect on you. As it has on Mr. Stigile also, who does not seem the least bit “intimidated” while he carries out his vicious personal vendetta against Mr. Jordan.

   I must say that since I’ve been reading Rockville Central, I’ve been rather amazed at the number of defaming comments you have made against the two (successful) candidates that you saw fit to oppose in the last City election. Don’t you know how much like sour grapes it sounds, and how truly tiresome your cyberbullying has become. I personally want to thank Brad and Cindy for deciding to take Rockville Central in a new direction, because this current format has been the only place where I have been exposed to your peculiar brand of “journalism” and I look forward to a welcome break from your venom.

7. Theresa Defino

   Well, golly, Ms. Ayers. Thanks very much for your (inappropriate) thoughts. This feels very much like a personal attack to me, and I wonder how it passed comment moderation. Accusing someone of defamation is a serious charge, and one that I do not appreciate-much less believe I am guilty of. Venom? Defamation? Hardly.

   I commented yesterday because this Art’s post was about something directly involving me. And about RC moving to Facebook because I found that of interest. I am sorry if somehow you didn’t like being “exposed” to my comments.

   I certainly have nothing to fear from my emails being reviewed, nor did I say I did. What exactly do you think I am somehow worried about? I find that charge quite comical. And my overall position was that this was a waste of city resources, which I would think every taxpayer would find deplorable.

   As for who I support when I vote, gosh, I knew all the candidates over many years and am entitled to express my opinions. Not all the candidates I supported lost, may I add…three are serving us quite well right now.

   As Brad and Cindy-I had not commented about anything since the last time Mr. Jordan posted about my so-called mysterious emails. I had refrained from commenting until yesterday. And the chilling effect, one would presume, refers to my interactions with the city, since those are the subject of the FOIA. How would you know what effect this has had on those?

8. Jim Coyle

   I am concerned about the perception of a conflict of interest. Mr. Jordan was Mayor Marcuccio’s campaign manager and then was appointed to the Golf Course Advisory Committee at a time that serious concerns were being raised abour subsidizing Redgate. Like me, Mr. Jordan is a avid golfer. To avoid any potential conflict, I suggest that Mr. Jordan consider resigning from the Golf Course Committee. If not, the perception of will continue.

   Secondly, I hope all of this dialogue will make residents take a closer look at the Redgate issue. We have 9 Montgomery County golf courses available to Rockville Residents. The Needwood Golf Course backs up to Redgate which means there is no driving hardship for Rockville golfers.

   Thirdly, how long will we continue to subsidize a money-losing operation? We have too many other priorities to spend funds in this manner.

   Fourthly, the Redgate property offers a great opportunity to preserve a wonderful natural area, our last, for current and future citizens. Given its location across from the Rockville Mansion property, an opportunity to connect the two properties for having an expanded array of environmental, recreation, and social activiites is excellent.

   Lets have a positive debate about what is right for Rockville devoid of perceived political gamesmanship.

9. Martha Klasing

   Thus far I have read these postings with mild interest and amusement. Up to this point, I saw no reason to chime in, as my main focus is and always has been how to correct a lot of misperceptions about RedGate and its cost to taxpayers. I am very concerned that the City keep this recreational amenity (no, I do not golf) because I think it is an important component of Rockville’s diverse and robust Parks and Recreation offerings. And I think our vast array of recreational opportunities contributes greatly to Rockville being a great place to live, work, and do business.

   I would like to contribute some facts for those who are following this issue.

   1.) The RedGate Advisory Committee (which I have served on since 2007) was formed in 2005 at the request of Joe Jordan. Golfers were asked to volunteer their time to provide input on their golf experience at RedGate. Burt Hall, Director of Parks and Recreation, agreed that the committee would be a good idea. In addition to golfers and non-golfers, other members include the head golf professional, the golf course superintendent, and a liaison from the Parks and Rec Advisory Board. The primary reason for committees like RAC is to represent the users of the amenities and bring their issues and concerns to City staff. In RedGate’s case, the committee took on the additional task of working to preserve the amenity.

   2.) Mayors Giammo, Hoffmann, and Marcuccio had nothing to do with the committee formation, membership, or activity. The committee is an advisory body made up of volunteers concerned about RedGate and its future. We do not represent the City, nor speak on its behalf. We represent the golfing community and other Rockville Citizens interested in keeping RedGate as a municipal golf course.

   3.) Joe Jordan was nominated and elected Chairman by the volunteer members of the RedGate Advisory Committee. No one was/is appointed by anyone on City Council or City staff.

   4.) The RedGate Advisory Committee prepared and presented the most comprehensive report ever done on RedGate this past year. It was praised by the Mid-Atlantic Professional Golfers Association as a model for what citizens’ groups can do to help elected officials in their decision making process. It was used extensively by the National Golf Foundation in their research for their recent study of RedGate.

   Jim Coyle expressed concern about the perception of a conflict of interest as regards Joe’s position of Chairman of the RedGate Advisory Committee and the fact that he was Mayor Marcuccio’s campaign manager in the last election. I think it is just that – a perception. As you can see from the facts set forth above, Joe Jordan’s position as Chairman of the RedGate Advisory Committee has absolutely nothing to do with his role as Mayor Marcuccio’s campaign manager. He wasn’t “appointed” by Mayor Marcuccio or any other City official. In fact, Joe started leading the cause to keep RedGate as a golf course in 2004 – a time before any of today’s elected officials were on the Council. A time when there was talk of possible commercial development of RedGate to fund further development of Town Center. I’ve worked very closely with Joe over the past several years and I believe all his efforts are centered around preserving RedGate as a municipal golf course and nothing political should be read into any of this.

   Lastly, I have to come back yet again to the premise that RedGate is costing Rockville taxpayers an arm and a leg. It is not. I’ve explained several times in this forum and others as to what comprises any of the “deficit” figures that have been quoted. The issue before us now is what needs to be done so that RedGate can succeed and operate efficiently and more profitably. If dollars and budget concerns are the real issue here, I would say outsource the entire maintenance of Rockville’s Parks, including maintenance of the swimming pool and Rockville Mansion grounds. That would be much less costly and would save taxpayers a significant amount of money. I’m not sure that is the real issue driving this discussion.

10. theresa defino

    thank you for the information on the creation of the advisory committee. to the point of art’s post, however, do you believe that mr. jordan’s actions are acceptable?

11. David Greene

    Thank you very much Ms. Klasing for your informative post. I remember your earlier post, which was also very informative and helpful:
    http://rockvillecentral.com/2010/10/contributor-opinion-by-martha-klasing-did-the-mayor-and-council-really-spend-over-2-million-on-redgate.html/

    I know it takes a lot of time and effort to clearly document the many details involved in most real-life situations, and I appreciate that you have taken the time to do so. Your thoughtful explanation is a welcome relief.

12. Art Stigile

    I see nothing amusing about the Chairman of the Advisory Committee submitting a FOIA request for my email simply because I oppose the Committee’s proposals for using taxpayers’ money. It’s especially troublesome coming on the heels of last month’s attempt to discredit the City Manager by distorting his email written to a member of the Advisory Committee about the distribution of the NGA study. Mr. Jordan’s outrageous charge this month that City staff are tracking the email of Advisory Committee members constitutes a pattern. This is hardly a model of civil discourse about legitimate disagreements over the use of taxpayers’ dollars.

    I would prefer to discuss those public policy differences. For example, the Advisory Committee’s repeated statement that indirect costs should not be charged to the golf course is inconsistent with generally accepted standards for measuring budgetary cost. Allocating full cost, including indirect expenses, is the Gold Standard in modern budgeting. It’s one of the first lessons learned by students in their first year of public finance. The Government Finance Officers Association lists this as a best practice (Measuring the Cost of Government Service, 2002). We recommend it extensively at the federal level, for example, for determining costs for Federal awards through grants (Office of Management and Budget, Circular A-87) and for calculating user charges (OMB Circular A-25). The full cost allocation report prepared by the Matrix Consulting Group stated the principle very clearly:

    “The primary objective of a Full-Cost Allocation Plan is to spread costs from administrative departments, generally called “Central Service Departments” to those departments, divisions, cost centers, and/or funds that receive services from the administration in support of conducting their operations. In doing so, an organization can both better understand its full cost of providing specific services to the community, and also generate organizational awareness regarding indirect (overhead) costs associated with operations.”

    Interestingly, the NGA study does not attempt to define away RedGate’s financial difficulties by excluding indirect costs. It deals with the issue head-on, as it should. The study notes that these are costs “that other golf courses (both private and public sector) might consider normal and thus should be included as basic operating expenses.” It further notes that “a comparable non-municipal golf course would have administrative expenses in the $180,000 to $200,000 range per year, inclusive of senior management staff (P & R Director/City Manager).” If we are to be serious about operating the golf course without burdening taxpayers, this is one of the cost drivers that we should be addressing, not following the Advisory Committee’s recommendation to hide the expense in the General Fund.

    One more substantive point. The Advisory Committee has promoted the argument that the City would continue to bear these indirect costs if the golf course were closed or a private manager were hired to run it. It’s a specious argument. Next year the cost of indirect services provided to the golf fund is estimated at $335,000. That’s a lot of hours of staff time. Assume for purposes of discussion that all of these services were provided by extremely high paid employees earning $100 per hour, including benefits (total compensation of $208,000). That’s more than 1.5 staff in central administrative positions providing services to the golf course instead of providing services to taxpayers. If we closed the golf course and the number of staff was not reduced, taxpayers would certainly pick up the cost. But at least taxpayers would be getting the benefit of their time and services.

13. Jim Coyle

    I appreciate Marth’s information about the Golf Advisory Committee. I would still like to hear some arguments about keeping Redgate vs using Needwood and the other County courses which are fee based and self-supporting through the management of the County Revenue Authority. More than likely, Rockville residents through our county taxes are paying for administrative costs to support the Revenue Authority.

    The recent analysis by the NGA indicates that losses will continue be realized by the Redgate golf course for the foreseeable future. I don’t see how the residents of Rockville can continue to be asked to carry this deficit when there are far more important services that need support. We are already carrying the massive debt for the Town Center garages which should not have been put on the backs of the taxpayers when other private sector options were available.

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